Does Karate Really Work On The Street?, Does Karate really work on the Street?

Hello, I'm new to this forum and I'm sure that this topic has been debated on here before. My intent is not to ruffle any feathers, but to generate some healthy debate. I myself trained in the traditional arts for 10 years, but after coming to some tough realizations about karate (basically that 99% of it doesn't work in the real world), I've been doing more of what I would consider realistic fighting (boxing, muay thai, BJJ, etc...). Again I'm not looking for hate mail...just intellectual conversation. A good start would be the UFC. Why don't we see fixed stances, blocks, reverse punches, ridge hands, shutos, flashy kicks, etc...all the things we learn as a Karate student?

Royal20,

I think part of the reason we don't see so much of the traditional in the UFC is because in an MMA world if you are limited strictly to one discipline you will lose.

The sport of MMA has evolved to a point where everyone needs to be a master of at least one striking art like boxing, muay thai for the knees and elbows, wrestling for the takedowns and takedown defense, and then ju jitsu, judo or some other form of submission style.

If you stay stationary and bang with someone in the octagon they will just shoot for the takedown. Or if you're up against a Liddel or Sylvia they'll just KO you.

Traditional martial arts (TMA) to me are very effective in the street. The key difference is that you are not usually competing against an opponent who is highly skilled.

As for the 'flashy' moves in karate. You are correct, rarely will you need to pull one of them out of your arsenal. Usually a standard block, punch or kick will be all you need. However, knowing how to do them is not useless. Sometimes the only opening you are presented is one that needs a move of that type. So don't neglect them, just recognize that their use is more limited.

And before I forget... Welcome to the forum!

Shorin-Ryu Karateka

Welcome to the forum, royal20.

I think it depends on what style or school of karate one practices. Some concentrate on tournaments, some on self-defence. In tournament style one is taught that some techniques are off limits and visa-versa for others. It also depends on ones mindset. In other words, do I really want to hurt this person or no.

In my opinion, I believe the person has a lot to do with whether or not karate, or any martial art for that matter, will work on the street. Of course, having the ability doesn't help either. Hope this helps.

Carl

Thanks Shorin-Ryu Karateka for the post. You make a really good point that I usually overlook when comparing the UFC to a real street fight. That in today's UFC you are putting two skilled fighters together, where as on the street you will more than likely be facing someone with no formal training. Here is my issue with TMA (thanks for the acronym by the way). I know every dojo/teacher is different, and you shouldn't stereo-type a certain style based on that specific dojo/teacher. My background is mainly in Kenpo Karate, but consider myself to be fairly knowledgeable about most styles. I absolutely loved Kenpo...when the dojo doors were opened you could bet I was there. I'm sure like most TMA you are led to believe that what you are learning is a complete system. It is all you need to successfully defend yourself. In kenpo they even go one step further and tell you once you've reached black belt you can defend yourself against 3 attackers, and hit someone 8 times in one second. It was easy to believe because in a dojo setting it was easy to accomplish. Aside from sparring, which for us was like a game of tag, your attacker was always cooperative....they didn't fight back. So when my fellow martial artist came in with a simulated sucker punch, I could easily perform my knife hand block, with a ridgehand to the neck, tigers claw to the face, front snap kick to the groin...you get the idea. I could sling out 7 or 8 strikes in blazing speed and accurately hit my targets because the guy is letting me. It really is a huge boost to your ego and confindence. So a normal class would consist of performing basics from a horse stance, learning a kata, learning specific techniques against a choke, punch, etc..and some light sparring (which never looked anything like the techniques or basics you had been learning). So when rank test came around what did you have to do for the next belt? Just show that you knew all your basics, katas, and perform your techniques on a cooperative body. Obviously as you progress through the ranks techniques get harder with more moves, but it is basically the same deal. So 6 years later when you reach your black belt does it truly mean you can defend yourself, when all you've done is proven you can memorize and execute a bunch of moves in sequence? In the Martial Arts world, and even to the general public, such high respect and admiration is given to one who earns a black belt. But usually that respect, especially to the public, is centered around fighting/self-defense. But to me I respect that person for the blood, sweat, and tears they've given to get to that point. But I honestly don't think they are any superior from a fighting stand point than some guy with a couple months of boxing training.

My wake up call was from a friend that I trained with in the early stages of my Martial Arts career. He moved away and we met up years later after I had received my black belt. He had quit TMA and gotten into boxing, muay thai, etc... He would constantly put down on TMA, and I would get furious. Finally after much heated debate he said let me prove it to you. He wanted us to do what's called a scenario drill. I hadn't heard of it at the time, but basically you put together a realistic scenario like a mugging, bar fight, etc... It is full force, anything goes. Of course we wore protective gear...knee pads, shin guards, head gear, etc... I think the scenario we did was two guys bumping into each other at a bar, and one of the guys really getting up in the other guys face making a big deal over it. My friend played the so called bad guy. The rule was he had to fight like an average joe would, basically just wild punches. Dialogue was also very important, which is usually left out of dojo training. So we start the scenario....I accidentally bump into him...he gets in my face cussing me out, how dare I bump into him etc...It is amazing how realistic it seemed. I could feel my heart beating like crazy, hair standing on end. Then all of the sudden he suckered punched me, which caused me to stagger back. As he starts to come back at me with wild punches I just froze...It seemed like an eternity even though it was probably less than a second. A flood of techniques, moves, basics, pretty much everything I learned came racing by. It was such an overload that I didn't react. Even though they teach you that by doing all that stuff over and over again will make it become instinctive. I was getting killed until I ended up reverting to basic punching and kicking (sparring). In the end he still got the best of me, and I was heart broken...all those years of training. Sure it at least taught me how to punch and kick which is what helped me, but does it take 6 years and a black belt? The next few months after my friend started teaching me some basic kickboxing and grappling. We did the scenario again and it was like night and day. Instead of having all these techniques, I had a few core punches, kicks, submissions that only took months to learn, not years.

Sorry for the long story...just wanted you to see where I'm coming from. I guess my fear is for those out there like me. Who are sold a bill of goods that they are practically invincible....that their art is superior to all others...etc. Then that person has to defend themselves in a life or death situation, and realizes that what they learned doesn't work, or they freeze because the attacker doesn't attack or react the same way his fellow martial Art's buddy does.

Maybe it just comes down to the training aspect. Most dojos only teach in theory. The instructor has more than likely never been in a real fight, and is only teaching what he learned from his instructor. It is taught as the gospel truth but how does he know? And how does his instructor know? Do we just blindly except something works because it has been done that way for thousands of years? I like to use a quarterback analogy. It's like a quarterback who has memorized all the plays, and even goes out on the field and simulates the plays with a cooperative defense. And maybe occasionally the defense will give some light resistance. But how affective is that quarterback going to be in a real game? He's not use to the crowd screaming, some defensive lineman all up in his face, having to scramble outside the pocket because the play didn't execute properly. For the quarterback to have a fighting chance, he must simulate a live game so he knows what really works and what doesn't. What things in theory sound good, but when executed fall to pieces.

Your thoughts?

Nice story man
I for one have found that my TMA ( Kyokushin )is very effective on the street.
We are not taught that it is the be all and end all of martial arts etc. I think its mainly nurture not nature of the art that makes it ineffective.
We spar a lot and its not that light stuff that you were talking about , but full contact no holds barred free sparring. I think thats whats makes thie differance between the ability to utilise it properly when needed.
The basiscs are there to teach your body how to use all the muscles how to use thier power properly not as a "this is how a punch should be in a fight" way. If your body is used to punchin/ kicking then it will be able to do it with out hurting its self. anyway i dont know if what i said makes any sense to anyone but me but all i know is that i have been in many situations that needed me to be able to react in a pinch and my knowledge of TMA has helped a lot.

Karate without full sparring is next to useless for a street situation imo. If youre used to thinking that the other person is going to stand there sationary like a punching bag while you think about technique youre going to use, then be prepared to wiped over the floor. The only way to know how to fight/defend yourself against a real person is to fight/defend yourself against a real person with the intent of hitting you hard.

Just another 2cents from another kyokushinkai karateka

Santa Claws and Dim, sounds like you guys have a really good school. Maybe it's just me but I think your art is a small percentage. Meaning that most schools don't incorporate any full contact, real life training. Is that your experience with other styles/schools you have seen? Not picking on any one style, but I went to an Aikido class a couple times, and their whole thing was no striking at all. Only to use your opponents momentum to throw them, get them in an armlock, etc... Again it was all practiced with the complete cooperation of the attacker, so of course it looked good and seemed like it could work in real life. No offense to any Aikido practiconers but that just seems unrealistic. And I've seen other systems like that, where what they teach sounds good in theory but won't work in the real world. Just like me...I believed what I was learning worked. It made it more believable when you see your instructor out there taking on multiple attackers (cooperative of course), and cleaning their clock. He could have told me anything and I would have believed it. At least in my experience you never questioned what your instructor said. And that's what scares me about most of the TMA of today. You've got kids and adults learning stuff that in theory sounds good, but since they never have any full contact training, they never know if it works or not until it is too late.

The video David Jones posted in the "Attn Karate People Post" is exactly what I'm talking about. That's how I think karate should be trained. And if you look it is core/basic strikes: punches, kicks, takedowns, grappling.

hello royal20 and welcome to the forum!

I really enjoyed your posts. I too am a kenpo practitioner although i really wouldn't consider it pure or a tma, well at least my school. But i do appreciate traditional arts but on the other hand i also love to catch the lastest UFC or PRIDE match on tv. so i guess you could say im somewhere in the middle. But i think the fact that i had a little more expereince with MA before i started kenpo which more than likely change my initial views. But like you have realized i noticed many of those flaws to begin with so i wasn't really expecting the ultimate self defense guide from kenpo. Though my instructor seems to be pretty good about keeping things realistic. I've never heard him try and sell kenpo as a complete art, nor has he said that a blackbelt should be able to defeat multiple attackers. also since sparring at our school is optional some people chose not to and he always tells them "then don't expect to be able to properly defend yourself on the street." we also do a lot of random attack drills to work on the 'deer in the headlights syndrom' so i'd say i have gotten pretty lucky in what i get from my school. I also don't just stick with one art so i can definitely say im not being narrow minded. I have had a couple incidents where i had to test my training. and so far i've either been very lucky or it's been effective, with one involving an 'experienced street fighter' (if you could even call him that). although i wasn't relying on those 'lightning strikes' to stop my attackers but good solid technique and power. so i think karate can be effective on the street it just takes the right person and the right training.

Its not exactly small, theres supposedly over 10million students worldwide (either direct kyokushin or offshoot)

Every style is different (even within the same style, ive seen 3 different versions of kyokushin pinan ni ), some focus more on the "art" side of thing rather than the "martial".

There is one person (currently 7th kyu) who now trains at a 'sister' dojo to mine who was a black belt in an unnamed style which didnt use full contact sparring, after changing over a couple of guys went along to the other style to see what it was like. Needless to say they never went back again, poor discipline, no spirit and no obvious direct aplication of what youre learning. If youre not given an oppourtunity to try a technique in a real situation how will you know if its effective or not. One of my sempai's favourite drills at the moment is a multiple attacker drill, 2 people on 1, where the count of the next attack is speed up until pretty much both people attack at the same time, and the person in the middle gets overwhelmed. Because in reality multiple attackers attack at the same time instead of waiting for turns.

As for not asking questions of your instructors we are encouraged to ask question eg. when, where and why would you use this technique?

Also keep in mind that some things in TMA are only really used for strength exercises (who fights in kiba dachi???) or for situations other than a street fight, were youre not trying to cause maximum damage.

Hey royal 20,

Great post - i've been thinking along the same lines as you for a while ie that the techniques we learn are not going to be effective in a street situation. The first thing that got me thinking along these lines was that i noticed that no one in my club seemed to use any of the blocks taught in class consistently when sparring. Further sparring with guys outside of my style who train in muay thai and boxing confirmed that what i have been learning may not be 'effective' in a street situation... The boxer (no leg strikes) told me i was 'leading with my chin' when i came forward, and he quickly made me pay for the error of my ways with 2 or 3 hard shots to the face - slipping my jab and countering... Against the muay thai fighter who is a tall & rangy kinda guy - i actually had more luck, trading kicks and then countering when i saw an opening but even he told me that my habit of blocking front kicks with a lower block was opening me up to head shots - something which is not an issue when sparring at my club given the the 'no punches to the face' rule we have. This is not to say that the muay thai technique was flawless either - i noticed he had a nasty habit of dropping his hands on a roundhouse kick, extending his outside hand down for more power.
As a result of these observations i have now started taking boxing in addition to my karate classes every week - to get myself used to slipping, weaving and most of all taking shots to the face & i think that in conjunction with karate i can prepare myself for a street situation.
Having said that i must put in that to me karate is more than just about street effectiveness but even limiting karate to that one criteria IMHO there is no reason why karateka could not, like the UFC guys mentioned earlier, cross train in different styles eg boxing as above or BJJ etc and be seriously ready for any street situation.
What do you guys think???

Hey Renshinkai,

I had the same experience around sparring...In most the TMA schools I trained in, or observed, rarely did you see the techniques taught in class being used in sparring. And to your point it was especially around blocking. Which in my school sparring was highly down played as sport karate...that it served no purpose for actual self defense. (Which in hind sight was probably their way of covering up the fact that you couldn't use a lot of the techniques in real life).

Getting back to blocking...I have pretty much completely eliminated blocking from my self-defense arsenal (Everyone in the forum just fell out of their chair in disbelief). When I say pretty much I mean I might still use a quick boxers parry or cover, but that's it. No more big demonstrative high, low, inside, outside blocks. I find that slipping, weaving, and mainly footwork are the most effective ways of nullifying a punch or kick. Again from my experience it is easy to block a reverse punch that your fellow Martial Artist is throwing from the hip, and leaves it hanging out there for you to execute your inward block. But in every full-contact/full-speed scenario I've been in those blocks are impossible to execute.

I think it's great that you are cross training and adding to your usual karate class. But here is my personal dilema. (Now I'm speaking strictly from a self-defense standpoint. I realize that karate has a lot more to offer than just fighting: self discipline, patience, coordination, endurance, and on and on...you guys know the list ) It's just really difficult for me to be a part of a TMA class when I feel like what they are trying to teach as legitimate self-defense doesn't really work. I mean it would be real tough for me to stand in my horse stance performing block after block, or throwing all my punches from the hip, when I don't feel like that's right. But you can't just raise your hand and say "OK the kicks you are teaching work for me, but this blocking stuff I'm just not into so I'm not gonna do it". I don't think that would go over well. So Renshinkai what do you think? I mean how do you keep a balance with still going to your karate class, but trying to incorporate boxing as well? For me it feels like a conflict of interest.

i don't think its too difficult to keep the balance between different arts. i just pick up what i like from each of my class and incorporate into my training. everything new i learn sort of goes through a screening process in which i decide whether i should toss it in with my training or just put it in my memory banks. like you said royal, if you flat out told your karate instructor that 'i like this but no this so im not gonna do it' it wouldn't go over to well. when im caught in that situation i just politely do what i am asked because by walking into that school i agreed to respect all guidance and instrutors. but as a kenpo student we are told that since everyone is different, not every technique will work for everyone due to height, speed, strength, natural ability, etc... so you must find which techniques will be most effective for you. so im sure you could agree with me on that every martial artist must figure out what will work for them and not just accept everything they are taught.

Royal try a kyokushin class for a while. I think that it may be good for you .

I concur (im not biased or anything )

Hey Royal,

I'll tell you my solution and you see what you think... After training with the muay thai and boxing guys and wearing a few shots to the face i went directly to my sensei and told him that i'd sparred with these guys and basically that everytime i came forwards i got punched in the face. My sensei listened to this and was not happy that one of his students had been wearing a few and offered to give me some one on one time every week to work on footwork, balance etc (he has a boxing background). So once a week i was coming down to the club and working on footwork footwork and more footwork - he says that footwork is everything in boxing, anyway once my footwork was up to speed he turned me over to one of his sons (who is a 3rd dan at our club) - and now every second class his son and i move around working on drills for speed and power before we spar. He kicks my ass everytime - at just over 6'2 he's got two inches on me - but even he has been impressed with how quickly i'm putting it together. Like you said about being 'caught in the headlights' i used to panic everytime he came onto me hard, now i work on ducking and weaving and trying to counter.
So i guess the story is now that i work on kata in the regular class (or techniques or whatever sensei says) and have no problem doing this because i know that at the next session i'll be putting the gloves on and doing some boxing.
In fact i have even found that my even my kata has improved because i no longer view it as ineffective, instead i am starting to see it as an opportunity to work on my technique (things like side kicks etc).
So i guess my situation is a little different in that my sensei has been amazingly good to me in letting me spar in a corner of the dojo while he is taking a class, but i would suggest that you talk to your sensei, that's what he is there for - to 'guide' you through your development as a martial artist and see what he suggests with regard to your current situation.
All the best with it and let us know what you plan to do.
Renshinkai