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Posted by: royal20 Apr 18 2006, 02:45 PM

Hello, I'm new to this forum and I'm sure that this topic has been debated on here before. My intent is not to ruffle any feathers, but to generate some healthy debate. I myself trained in the traditional arts for 10 years, but after coming to some tough realizations about karate (basically that 99% of it doesn't work in the real world), I've been doing more of what I would consider realistic fighting (boxing, muay thai, BJJ, etc...). Again I'm not looking for hate mail...just intellectual conversation. A good start would be the UFC. Why don't we see fixed stances, blocks, reverse punches, ridge hands, shutos, flashy kicks, etc...all the things we learn as a Karate student?

Posted by: Shorin-Ryu Karateka Apr 18 2006, 05:01 PM

Royal20,

I think part of the reason we don't see so much of the traditional in the UFC is because in an MMA world if you are limited strictly to one discipline you will lose.

The sport of MMA has evolved to a point where everyone needs to be a master of at least one striking art like boxing, muay thai for the knees and elbows, wrestling for the takedowns and takedown defense, and then ju jitsu, judo or some other form of submission style.

If you stay stationary and bang with someone in the octagon they will just shoot for the takedown. Or if you're up against a Liddel or Sylvia they'll just KO you.

Traditional martial arts (TMA) to me are very effective in the street. The key difference is that you are not usually competing against an opponent who is highly skilled.

As for the 'flashy' moves in karate. You are correct, rarely will you need to pull one of them out of your arsenal. Usually a standard block, punch or kick will be all you need. However, knowing how to do them is not useless. Sometimes the only opening you are presented is one that needs a move of that type. So don't neglect them, just recognize that their use is more limited.

And before I forget... Welcome to the forum!

Shorin-Ryu Karateka

Posted by: carl Apr 18 2006, 06:18 PM

Welcome to the forum, royal20.

I think it depends on what style or school of karate one practices. Some concentrate on tournaments, some on self-defence. In tournament style one is taught that some techniques are off limits and visa-versa for others. It also depends on ones mindset. In other words, do I really want to hurt this person or no.

In my opinion, I believe the person has a lot to do with whether or not karate, or any martial art for that matter, will work on the street. Of course, having the ability doesn't help either. Hope this helps.

Carl

Posted by: royal20 Apr 18 2006, 08:34 PM

Thanks Shorin-Ryu Karateka for the post. You make a really good point that I usually overlook when comparing the UFC to a real street fight. That in today's UFC you are putting two skilled fighters together, where as on the street you will more than likely be facing someone with no formal training. Here is my issue with TMA (thanks for the acronym by the way). I know every dojo/teacher is different, and you shouldn't stereo-type a certain style based on that specific dojo/teacher. My background is mainly in Kenpo Karate, but consider myself to be fairly knowledgeable about most styles. I absolutely loved Kenpo...when the dojo doors were opened you could bet I was there. I'm sure like most TMA you are led to believe that what you are learning is a complete system. It is all you need to successfully defend yourself. In kenpo they even go one step further and tell you once you've reached black belt you can defend yourself against 3 attackers, and hit someone 8 times in one second. It was easy to believe because in a dojo setting it was easy to accomplish. Aside from sparring, which for us was like a game of tag, your attacker was always cooperative....they didn't fight back. So when my fellow martial artist came in with a simulated sucker punch, I could easily perform my knife hand block, with a ridgehand to the neck, tigers claw to the face, front snap kick to the groin...you get the idea. I could sling out 7 or 8 strikes in blazing speed and accurately hit my targets because the guy is letting me. It really is a huge boost to your ego and confindence. So a normal class would consist of performing basics from a horse stance, learning a kata, learning specific techniques against a choke, punch, etc..and some light sparring (which never looked anything like the techniques or basics you had been learning). So when rank test came around what did you have to do for the next belt? Just show that you knew all your basics, katas, and perform your techniques on a cooperative body. Obviously as you progress through the ranks techniques get harder with more moves, but it is basically the same deal. So 6 years later when you reach your black belt does it truly mean you can defend yourself, when all you've done is proven you can memorize and execute a bunch of moves in sequence? In the Martial Arts world, and even to the general public, such high respect and admiration is given to one who earns a black belt. But usually that respect, especially to the public, is centered around fighting/self-defense. But to me I respect that person for the blood, sweat, and tears they've given to get to that point. But I honestly don't think they are any superior from a fighting stand point than some guy with a couple months of boxing training.

My wake up call was from a friend that I trained with in the early stages of my Martial Arts career. He moved away and we met up years later after I had received my black belt. He had quit TMA and gotten into boxing, muay thai, etc... He would constantly put down on TMA, and I would get furious. Finally after much heated debate he said let me prove it to you. He wanted us to do what's called a scenario drill. I hadn't heard of it at the time, but basically you put together a realistic scenario like a mugging, bar fight, etc... It is full force, anything goes. Of course we wore protective gear...knee pads, shin guards, head gear, etc... I think the scenario we did was two guys bumping into each other at a bar, and one of the guys really getting up in the other guys face making a big deal over it. My friend played the so called bad guy. The rule was he had to fight like an average joe would, basically just wild punches. Dialogue was also very important, which is usually left out of dojo training. So we start the scenario....I accidentally bump into him...he gets in my face cussing me out, how dare I bump into him etc...It is amazing how realistic it seemed. I could feel my heart beating like crazy, hair standing on end. Then all of the sudden he suckered punched me, which caused me to stagger back. As he starts to come back at me with wild punches I just froze...It seemed like an eternity even though it was probably less than a second. A flood of techniques, moves, basics, pretty much everything I learned came racing by. It was such an overload that I didn't react. Even though they teach you that by doing all that stuff over and over again will make it become instinctive. I was getting killed until I ended up reverting to basic punching and kicking (sparring). In the end he still got the best of me, and I was heart broken...all those years of training. Sure it at least taught me how to punch and kick which is what helped me, but does it take 6 years and a black belt? The next few months after my friend started teaching me some basic kickboxing and grappling. We did the scenario again and it was like night and day. Instead of having all these techniques, I had a few core punches, kicks, submissions that only took months to learn, not years.

Sorry for the long story...just wanted you to see where I'm coming from. I guess my fear is for those out there like me. Who are sold a bill of goods that they are practically invincible....that their art is superior to all others...etc. Then that person has to defend themselves in a life or death situation, and realizes that what they learned doesn't work, or they freeze because the attacker doesn't attack or react the same way his fellow martial Art's buddy does.

Maybe it just comes down to the training aspect. Most dojos only teach in theory. The instructor has more than likely never been in a real fight, and is only teaching what he learned from his instructor. It is taught as the gospel truth but how does he know? And how does his instructor know? Do we just blindly except something works because it has been done that way for thousands of years? I like to use a quarterback analogy. It's like a quarterback who has memorized all the plays, and even goes out on the field and simulates the plays with a cooperative defense. And maybe occasionally the defense will give some light resistance. But how affective is that quarterback going to be in a real game? He's not use to the crowd screaming, some defensive lineman all up in his face, having to scramble outside the pocket because the play didn't execute properly. For the quarterback to have a fighting chance, he must simulate a live game so he knows what really works and what doesn't. What things in theory sound good, but when executed fall to pieces.

Your thoughts?

Posted by: satanclaws Apr 18 2006, 09:37 PM

Nice story man

I for one have found that my TMA ( Kyokushin )is very effective on the street.
We are not taught that it is the be all and end all of martial arts etc. I think its mainly nurture not nature of the art that makes it ineffective.
We spar a lot and its not that light stuff that you were talking about , but full contact no holds barred free sparring. I think thats whats makes thie differance between the ability to utilise it properly when needed.
The basiscs are there to teach your body how to use all the muscles how to use thier power properly not as a "this is how a punch should be in a fight" way. If your body is used to punchin/ kicking then it will be able to do it with out hurting its self. anyway i dont know if what i said makes any sense to anyone but me but all i know is that i have been in many situations that needed me to be able to react in a pinch and my knowledge of TMA has helped a lot.

Posted by: Dim Apr 18 2006, 10:36 PM

Karate without full sparring is next to useless for a street situation imo. If youre used to thinking that the other person is going to stand there sationary like a punching bag while you think about technique youre going to use, then be prepared to wiped over the floor. The only way to know how to fight/defend yourself against a real person is to fight/defend yourself against a real person with the intent of hitting you hard.

Just another 2cents from another kyokushinkai karateka

Posted by: royal20 Apr 18 2006, 11:15 PM

Santa Claws and Dim, sounds like you guys have a really good school. Maybe it's just me but I think your art is a small percentage. Meaning that most schools don't incorporate any full contact, real life training. Is that your experience with other styles/schools you have seen? Not picking on any one style, but I went to an Aikido class a couple times, and their whole thing was no striking at all. Only to use your opponents momentum to throw them, get them in an armlock, etc... Again it was all practiced with the complete cooperation of the attacker, so of course it looked good and seemed like it could work in real life. No offense to any Aikido practiconers but that just seems unrealistic. And I've seen other systems like that, where what they teach sounds good in theory but won't work in the real world. Just like me...I believed what I was learning worked. It made it more believable when you see your instructor out there taking on multiple attackers (cooperative of course), and cleaning their clock. He could have told me anything and I would have believed it. At least in my experience you never questioned what your instructor said. And that's what scares me about most of the TMA of today. You've got kids and adults learning stuff that in theory sounds good, but since they never have any full contact training, they never know if it works or not until it is too late.

The video David Jones posted in the "Attn Karate People Post" is exactly what I'm talking about. That's how I think karate should be trained. And if you look it is core/basic strikes: punches, kicks, takedowns, grappling.

Posted by: OneMustFall Apr 19 2006, 03:26 AM

hello royal20 and welcome to the forum!

I really enjoyed your posts. I too am a kenpo practitioner although i really wouldn't consider it pure or a tma, well at least my school. But i do appreciate traditional arts but on the other hand i also love to catch the lastest UFC or PRIDE match on tv. so i guess you could say im somewhere in the middle. But i think the fact that i had a little more expereince with MA before i started kenpo which more than likely change my initial views. But like you have realized i noticed many of those flaws to begin with so i wasn't really expecting the ultimate self defense guide from kenpo. Though my instructor seems to be pretty good about keeping things realistic. I've never heard him try and sell kenpo as a complete art, nor has he said that a blackbelt should be able to defeat multiple attackers. also since sparring at our school is optional some people chose not to and he always tells them "then don't expect to be able to properly defend yourself on the street." we also do a lot of random attack drills to work on the 'deer in the headlights syndrom' so i'd say i have gotten pretty lucky in what i get from my school. I also don't just stick with one art so i can definitely say im not being narrow minded. I have had a couple incidents where i had to test my training. and so far i've either been very lucky or it's been effective, with one involving an 'experienced street fighter' (if you could even call him that). although i wasn't relying on those 'lightning strikes' to stop my attackers but good solid technique and power. so i think karate can be effective on the street it just takes the right person and the right training.

Posted by: Dim Apr 19 2006, 06:04 AM

QUOTE (royal20 @ Apr 18 2006, 11:15 PM)

Its not exactly small, theres supposedly over 10million students worldwide (either direct kyokushin or offshoot)

Every style is different (even within the same style, ive seen 3 different versions of kyokushin pinan ni

), some focus more on the "art" side of thing rather than the "martial".

There is one person (currently 7th kyu) who now trains at a 'sister' dojo to mine who was a black belt in an unnamed style which didnt use full contact sparring, after changing over a couple of guys went along to the other style to see what it was like. Needless to say they never went back again, poor discipline, no spirit and no obvious direct aplication of what youre learning. If youre not given an oppourtunity to try a technique in a real situation how will you know if its effective or not. One of my sempai's favourite drills at the moment is a multiple attacker drill, 2 people on 1, where the count of the next attack is speed up until pretty much both people attack at the same time, and the person in the middle gets overwhelmed. Because in reality multiple attackers attack at the same time instead of waiting for turns.

As for not asking questions of your instructors

we are encouraged to ask question eg. when, where and why would you use this technique?

Also keep in mind that some things in TMA are only really used for strength exercises (who fights in kiba dachi???) or for situations other than a street fight, were youre not trying to cause maximum damage.

Posted by: Renshinkai Apr 20 2006, 05:16 PM

Hey royal 20,

Great post - i've been thinking along the same lines as you for a while ie that the techniques we learn are not going to be effective in a street situation. The first thing that got me thinking along these lines was that i noticed that no one in my club seemed to use any of the blocks taught in class consistently when sparring. Further sparring with guys outside of my style who train in muay thai and boxing confirmed that what i have been learning may not be 'effective' in a street situation... The boxer (no leg strikes) told me i was 'leading with my chin' when i came forward, and he quickly made me pay for the error of my ways with 2 or 3 hard shots to the face - slipping my jab and countering... Against the muay thai fighter who is a tall & rangy kinda guy - i actually had more luck, trading kicks and then countering when i saw an opening but even he told me that my habit of blocking front kicks with a lower block was opening me up to head shots - something which is not an issue when sparring at my club given the the 'no punches to the face' rule we have. This is not to say that the muay thai technique was flawless either - i noticed he had a nasty habit of dropping his hands on a roundhouse kick, extending his outside hand down for more power.
As a result of these observations i have now started taking boxing in addition to my karate classes every week - to get myself used to slipping, weaving and most of all taking shots to the face & i think that in conjunction with karate i can prepare myself for a street situation.
Having said that i must put in that to me karate is more than just about street effectiveness but even limiting karate to that one criteria IMHO there is no reason why karateka could not, like the UFC guys mentioned earlier, cross train in different styles eg boxing as above or BJJ etc and be seriously ready for any street situation.
What do you guys think???

Posted by: royal20 Apr 20 2006, 06:48 PM

Hey Renshinkai,

I had the same experience around sparring...In most the TMA schools I trained in, or observed, rarely did you see the techniques taught in class being used in sparring. And to your point it was especially around blocking. Which in my school sparring was highly down played as sport karate...that it served no purpose for actual self defense. (Which in hind sight was probably their way of covering up the fact that you couldn't use a lot of the techniques in real life).

Getting back to blocking...I have pretty much completely eliminated blocking from my self-defense arsenal (Everyone in the forum just fell out of their chair in disbelief). When I say pretty much I mean I might still use a quick boxers parry or cover, but that's it. No more big demonstrative high, low, inside, outside blocks. I find that slipping, weaving, and mainly footwork are the most effective ways of nullifying a punch or kick. Again from my experience it is easy to block a reverse punch that your fellow Martial Artist is throwing from the hip, and leaves it hanging out there for you to execute your inward block. But in every full-contact/full-speed scenario I've been in those blocks are impossible to execute.

I think it's great that you are cross training and adding to your usual karate class. But here is my personal dilema. (Now I'm speaking strictly from a self-defense standpoint. I realize that karate has a lot more to offer than just fighting: self discipline, patience, coordination, endurance, and on and on...you guys know the list

) It's just really difficult for me to be a part of a TMA class when I feel like what they are trying to teach as legitimate self-defense doesn't really work. I mean it would be real tough for me to stand in my horse stance performing block after block, or throwing all my punches from the hip, when I don't feel like that's right. But you can't just raise your hand and say "OK the kicks you are teaching work for me, but this blocking stuff I'm just not into so I'm not gonna do it". I don't think that would go over well. So Renshinkai what do you think? I mean how do you keep a balance with still going to your karate class, but trying to incorporate boxing as well? For me it feels like a conflict of interest.

Posted by: OneMustFall Apr 20 2006, 07:38 PM

i don't think its too difficult to keep the balance between different arts. i just pick up what i like from each of my class and incorporate into my training. everything new i learn sort of goes through a screening process in which i decide whether i should toss it in with my training or just put it in my memory banks. like you said royal, if you flat out told your karate instructor that 'i like this but no this so im not gonna do it' it wouldn't go over to well. when im caught in that situation i just politely do what i am asked because by walking into that school i agreed to respect all guidance and instrutors. but as a kenpo student we are told that since everyone is different, not every technique will work for everyone due to height, speed, strength, natural ability, etc... so you must find which techniques will be most effective for you. so im sure you could agree with me on that every martial artist must figure out what will work for them and not just accept everything they are taught.

Posted by: satanclaws Apr 21 2006, 02:13 AM

Royal try a kyokushin class for a while. I think that it may be good for you .

Posted by: Dim Apr 21 2006, 05:44 AM

I concur (im not biased or anything

)

Posted by: Renshinkai Apr 22 2006, 04:05 PM

Hey Royal,

I'll tell you my solution and you see what you think... After training with the muay thai and boxing guys and wearing a few shots to the face i went directly to my sensei and told him that i'd sparred with these guys and basically that everytime i came forwards i got punched in the face. My sensei listened to this and was not happy that one of his students had been wearing a few and offered to give me some one on one time every week to work on footwork, balance etc (he has a boxing background). So once a week i was coming down to the club and working on footwork footwork and more footwork - he says that footwork is everything in boxing, anyway once my footwork was up to speed he turned me over to one of his sons (who is a 3rd dan at our club) - and now every second class his son and i move around working on drills for speed and power before we spar. He kicks my ass everytime - at just over 6'2 he's got two inches on me - but even he has been impressed with how quickly i'm putting it together. Like you said about being 'caught in the headlights' i used to panic everytime he came onto me hard, now i work on ducking and weaving and trying to counter.
So i guess the story is now that i work on kata in the regular class (or techniques or whatever sensei says) and have no problem doing this because i know that at the next session i'll be putting the gloves on and doing some boxing.
In fact i have even found that my even my kata has improved because i no longer view it as ineffective, instead i am starting to see it as an opportunity to work on my technique (things like side kicks etc).
So i guess my situation is a little different in that my sensei has been amazingly good to me in letting me spar in a corner of the dojo while he is taking a class, but i would suggest that you talk to your sensei, that's what he is there for - to 'guide' you through your development as a martial artist and see what he suggests with regard to your current situation.
All the best with it and let us know what you plan to do.
Renshinkai

Posted by: Renshinkai Apr 22 2006, 04:20 PM

Hey Royal - just reread your post and it got me thinking about something my sensei said in one of the first footwork sessions we did. He said to me 'forget about these blocks you've been learning' and he demonstrated a jodan uke he said 'everyone who trains in martial arts thinks that on the street they're going to be able to block a punch if someone throws one - i want you to forget all that, these (points to legs) are going to get you out of trouble' in conjunction with ducking and slipping and weaving i guess. I didn't think to (and wouldn't want to) ask why we learn them then but after thinking about it i think that he thinks karate is about more than just street effectiveness, but i guess he was acknowledging the contradiction that you were talking about... Just thought it was relevant to what we are discussing in this thread...

Posted by: ohumble1 Apr 23 2006, 05:27 PM

This question is for Royal20, and please, I don't mean any disrespect. You staged a scenario drill with your friend (he got the best of you) and you came to the conclusion that 99% of karate, which you've trained 10 years in, is basically useless in a street fight. I think you're selling yourself short. Your friend is obviously a more skilled fighter than you are. You said that one of the rules were he had to fight like "an average Joe". He was an "average Joe" with a background of TMA, Muay Thai, boxing, etc. I find it hard to believe that during the course of this drill that none of those skills would instinctively kick in. He's a well rounded fighter. The chances of you running into someone like him on the street are slim. I would still like your chances, as a 10 year TMA trainee, against a more realistic average Joe.

Having said that, any Karate instructor that says their art is the best form of self defense is a fool. There is no ONE art that is better than the other. The sooner people realize that the better off they will be. If you want to train to be a COMPLETE FIGHTER, by all means you have to cross train. But if you are currently training in Karate or any traditional martial art, and have been training for awhile, take comfort and don't be discouraged. On a one on one fight, you PROBABLY would be able to hold your own. Providing of course you don't run into Royal20's friend!

Oh, and one more thing. You could take ten people, enroll them in Karate for 10 years, and you will have ten different fighters.

Posted by: royal20 Apr 24 2006, 10:40 PM

Thanks all for the feedback, and ohumble1 no disrespect taken...I appreciate the honesty

. You are right, I would have definitely been selling myself short if I came to my conclusions about TMA just from that one encounter. Actually that was just a wake up call for me...it took several months if not longer for me to completely turn my back on the traditional arts. When I say wake-up call, I mean up to that point I never questioned the validity of what I was being taught. Even those times when I would try a technique on a non-Martial Artist friend, and the technique didn't work, I would always defend the technique by thinking "Oh I must not have practiced it enough, or if we were going full force it would have worked, and etc... Never once did it cross my mind that that specific technique flat out just didn't work in real life...only in a controlled, cooperative dojo environment. I guess I always looked at it like my instructor wouldn't be teaching this to me if it didn't work, or these techniques have been around for hundreds of years so it has to be me, not the technique. So anyway after that wake up call I really started analyzing everything I had been taught up to that point. I continued going to class while training in boxing, muay thai, BJJ on the side. I also continued doing those scenario drills with my friend and others to get a fresh perspective. I tried my hardest to make my TMA techniques work in those drills. Trust me I wanted them to work more than anybody...because I put alot of years, blood, sweat, and tears into those techniques. And at the end of the day they just didn't work. So when I would go to my TMA class it was really hard to go through the motions of things that I believed didn't work. I know this is blasphemous to say in the TMA world, but I couldn't find any value in fixed stances, kata, blocking, punching from the hip, open hand strikes, pressure points, simultaneous striking, and on and on. Like I said earlier, my conclusion after many months of analysis was that 99% of what my art was comprised of didn't work on the street. That 1% was basically some of the basic kicks and punches you learn in TMA. And that 1% I can get from boxing and Muay Thai. There are 100s if not 1,000s of different styles of TMA out there today. If you got all of them in a room, and had them perform a kata, you would see a wide range of movements: hard, soft, linear, circular, fast, slow, etc... Some arts would look similar and others drastically different. Yet if you put them in some form of a simulated fight...whether it be tournament sparring, UFC, K1, scenario drills, NHB, whatever... they all pretty much resort to the same thing, basic punching & kicking. So why waste my time spending years training other techniques if that is the end result? To use another one of my lame analogies it's like needing to drive from San Francisco to Los Angeles, but you are given directions through New York City.

I know a lot of you disagree with me, so please fire away!

Posted by: meekstud Apr 28 2006, 03:52 AM

Contrary to what some schools teach, deep stances are nothing more than stopped movement. Every time you take a step forward, you are in a zenkutsu dachi or front stance. Does it have to be deep to be a front stance? No! It teaches you that if you're going to throw a technique, you should be in this general position. I've seen so many people try to throw a punch with their front knee aligned with their toes and their other hand chambered picture perfect. This is very impractical. I would never pull my hand into chamber to punch someone. It leaves my body way to open to attack. It's there to teach proper movement and not to leave your arm dangling to your side. What one learns at white belt is there because they're beginners. When you are more advanced, you need to look at what the technique really is. Not what someone told you to do because it looks pretty at a tournament. You have to evolve and grow with martial arts. Otherwise you'll find yourself wearing a black belt and still at the white belt level. Remember, you don't become martial arts. Marital Arts becomes you!

Posted by: AngelaG Apr 28 2006, 08:09 AM

QUOTE (meekstud @ Apr 28 2006, 03:52 AM)

I would never pull my hand into chamber to punch someone. It leaves my body way to open to attack. It's there to teach proper movement and not to leave your arm dangling to your side.

The hikite hand is a pulling hand. It grabs and pulls. Stick a portion of the opponent in their and pulll it towards your hip whilst twisting, and then do the technique with the other side.

If there is no grab and pull than there is no "proper movement" and dropping the hand would be counter-productive and lead to bad habits.

Posted by: meekstud Apr 28 2006, 01:04 PM

By all means, I'm not saying that pulling your hand is pointless. But to do it everytime like when you are doing front punches I think is. If you look at the way that kung fu teaches, your hand covers or fills the space caused by your punch. If you throw a high punch, your other hand fills the gap by your ribs. A low punch, your hand goes up to protect your head. I don't know if I'm explaining this right. It's hard to type out the motions.

Posted by: <Stinger> Apr 29 2006, 04:31 PM

Hmmm... I think that stances are very valuable becease they root you to the ground which helps you to generate more power. Also switching stance generates power, a reverse punch from a front leaning stance is not as powerful as one from a horse stance shifting to a front leaning stance. I believe that these principals of body dynamics are also applied in boxing and so forth. As for blocking, when used to parrie or redirect a stike in combimation with getting out of the way is ideal IMO. As for the benefit to TMA, I can honestly say that I am stronger, quicker, more aware and even a little tuffer than I was before I started. I can also throw a half decent punch and kick now, I like to think this gives me a bit of an advantage over the average Joe.

the anatomy of the human body hasn't changed. So why would a tradition technique not work today. I mean a kick to the bag is just as effective now as it was 100 years ago is it not?

One issue that hasn't been touch on is one that I find a little annoying. That is that what we see in the KFC (UFC) is viewed as "reality". Yes, it is very effective in the bucket (octigon) but they are also pretty restricked by rules as to what technegues they can and can't do. This is not so on the steet, on the street there are no rules. These days, people will resort to some type of weapon and think nothing of it. At least in TMA you learn how to deal with these types of situations, evective or not, atleast its something. You wont do this type of training in boxing, etc.

If your buddy wasn't wearing a cup during these senarios, would things have changes?

Posted by: rockshow6 Apr 30 2006, 05:49 PM

QUOTE (Renshinkai @ Apr 22 2006, 04:20 PM)

With respect, i disagree.

I haven't been studying karate for very long at all and cant claim to be amazing.
BUT i completely dissagree with the claim that blocks are ineffective if somebody on the streets throws a punch.

As i said i havent studied it very long but i go to a rough school daily and even though its not always serious i have punches thrown at me daily flimsy or hard and i block the punches so naturally its an instinct now and i often surprise myself that i am able to block strikes so quickly.

It is my oppinion that the blocks are very effective.

Posted by: gojupralgo Apr 30 2006, 08:26 PM

The blocks are effective.

As far as Karate working in the street. It depends on how it is taught. It's saved my hide on many occasions.

Toss out all the hype, trophies, inflated ranks, point sparring and egos... Then you'll see somehting that really does work.

Posted by: AngelaG Apr 30 2006, 09:39 PM

Blocks? What blocks? Show me a true block in karate.

Uke does not translate as block, it actually translates as receiver and block is a common misnomer. The only "block" we ever show our students is soft block, and even then that is so effective as to be considered a strike.

Age Uke - neck strike, headlock or arm break
Soto uke - Arm bar/break or drop
Uchi uke - Strike/ arm bar
Gedan barai - Throw/arm bar/ strike

etc. etc. Just a few of the uses of these techniques.

There a multitude of uses for the uke waza but outside of kumite I would say that block is NOT one of them.

Posted by: meekstud Apr 30 2006, 11:10 PM

[QUOTE]that is so effective as to be considered a strike.

I agree. A block in it's true form is a strike, a strike can be a block. There's no need to limit yourself by not exploring every possibility. The chamber for a front kick for example; it could be preparing to throw a kick, a knee, a block, retaliation from a foot stomp, etc. Such a basic movement has so many possibilities.

Posted by: gojupralgo Apr 30 2006, 11:56 PM

agreed

Posted by: soreman May 28 2006, 12:03 PM

I like this thread, My teacher has said many times he wants sparring to be as close as it can get to the real thing. He will teach one way on a move and then add "but if your on the street you could do this" At my school the rule has been you spar as hard as you want to as long as the person wants to. But not every one wants to so those people you hold back on. I think teaching someone to kick and punch has got to help on the street, as long as you keep it simple and fast.

Posted by: NickSCFC May 29 2006, 09:34 PM

This video is hilarious

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7674028043115699716&q=martial+arts

First off I'd nut that midget in the face, and I doubt his girlfriend's going to do anything

I was actually concerned about this sort of thing when I first started lessons and saw the sparring. Our sensei encourages aggression all the time, that's why he's the bestest

Posted by: meekstud Jul 23 2006, 05:35 AM

Did the guy in the video that got beat down ever have a day of training in his life? he just laid there!! What a joke! He must have studied that super secret art of possum fighting. I've heard that the most experienced in this art can lay there and get kicked for 20 minutes and only get 23 broken bones and 14 cuts on their face. Amazing skillz!

Posted by: pailumbob Jul 25 2006, 04:28 PM

I have fought on the street, and sparred in a classroom setting, and just recently picked up UFC style fighting. When I fought on the street, I did what was natural. I didn't throw a high kick, I didn't do a spectacular move. I hit the guy in the stomach and it was over. Guess what? I learned that in TMA. TMA gave me the strength, the speed, and the composure to do that. I was looking at three attackers. I dropped the first one and the other two walked off. My mind wasn't overloaded with techniques and things. If a martial art is to be effective, it has to teach you to "Clear your mind" and just do what needs to be done.

Now, in the cage, in a more controlled environment, it was a little different. I ended up kicking the guy in the face. It was ok to do that. The rules made it so that he couldn't kick me in the crotch, and I knew he didn't have the speed to catch my foot, so it worked. But guess what? I used what I learned in TMA to fight in the cage.

Posted by: mason_storm Jul 26 2006, 07:36 PM

1st hello gents good forum u got here.

2nd Im no expert so someone correct me or challenge me on my theory.

How does a street fight normally start in my experience with an argument finger pointing etc etc yes, The distance is normally at arms length, ok I think it can work in the street but u will hav to mix it up a little and it will not be pretty like in the movies, its a street fight so anything goes.

Best way imo to fight is to stand your ground and let the opponent come to you, And also disable the opponent ie try to take him down, leg sweep can work, try to grab him and put him down and once u hav how about a straight punch into the nose eyes water up pain shoots through the brain and if its a good one job done.

All be it, its not as simple as that sometimes its scruffy and you hav to mix it up a little.

Good theory or crap lol, either way i dont mind, im no expert.

Posted by: mason_storm Jul 26 2006, 07:42 PM

Also in most cases if their is more than one, for example 3 if u hit 1 with some real power and hurt him chances are the others are gonna see and think shit, and leg it.

Its also a mind game as well, If u win that u will win the fight, not long back 5 big meaty bouncers kicked a man to death a skinny family man your average joe, since when does it take 5 big bouncers to beat one man up, they mus hav had some low confidence if one of em couldnt go in by himself.

Disgusting.

Posted by: navekmac Aug 8 2006, 08:47 PM

QUOTE (royal20 @ Apr 18 2006, 02:45 PM)

hi
There is so much to say to this topic
Tma studied with the same conviction of any form of self
defence is extremely effective in defence outwith the dojo
in 23 years i have witnessed incredible changes in ability
of karatekas who study passionetly with spirit and conviction
to use the ultimate fighter competitions as an example is
dissapointing , if you look at traditional kata in its original
state and original bunkai/ application, it is not as most of us accept as red now, 2 nights a week is a hobie, world class boxers dont train 2 nights a week , it is the same for world class traditionl karateka and many more.
Adrenalin dump is the big issue for karateka, it needs to be
addressed more within martial arts , i recently took a class on
this and didnt realise that instructors are not tackling this problem.
maybe we should start a thread on this issue
with respect Kevin

Posted by: Shorin-Ryu Karateka Aug 9 2006, 02:06 AM

I agree that many dojos do not train their students to react to sudden situations. Most defense drills are setup before they are done. Thus there is no element of surprise.

Although we don't do it very often, we have done training in the past where at some point someone in the class is going to get jumped by one or more blackbelts. We usually pick our target while we are still in the locker room and decide which of us will be the agressors.

The first night we did it the brown belt we 'mugged' completely froze up and just stood there slack jawed. The second time we did it we got a better response but just slightly... We've actually talked about making it part of the test for black belt... Sometime during the warmups and grading you get jumped...

I know the few times I've been picked (we test the blackbelts too) that it's been a shock to the system... Although being one of the people that helped put it into practice in the first place I've found myself better prepared.

The bottom line is that yes, I think instructors should at least try to teach how to handle the adrenaline dump and shock that comes from a confrontation.

Posted by: Rick_72 Aug 9 2006, 01:42 PM

Success in combat (any kind) in my mind, and in many others, is an overwelming, violent action against your enemy to achieve a decisive victory. This mentality is as useful in a street fight (provided you don't start the violent action, because then your looking at jail time), as it is in a no kidding combat zone.

In short, I completely agree! More free training (meaning safe, but less scripted) needs to be done on the mats. During bunkai training too much attention is payed towards applying kata to a specific attack.....however, that same bunkai may apply to several different attacks, and with free fighting its up to the individual to find those applications.

Posted by: navekmac Aug 9 2006, 02:34 PM

Hi Rick
more less scripted attacks, and a more open minded approach to applications of bunkai, already on this forum i am hearing positive,
progressive martial artists sharing sound advice.
i think some people struggle to defend themselves in a real life situations because they believe if they dont defend themselves in a manner usually required in the dojo that they are somehow cheating , but we must remember we train in this manner to educate ourselves to react, wether it be in stance or not it does not matter in the street ( nobody gets graded out there )
We dont have time in these situations to worry about a, tzuki working or a geri landing properly.
i genuinely believe any martial artist with sufficient flying hours under there belt should feel challenged and not threatend in these situations and will unwittingly see themselves fall into kata,bunkai and kihon to defend themselves and all those hours of training will be worth it .
We learn dignity, respect, control , within our arts, but we need to accept that pure evil or violence can only be overcome by learnin to meet them head on. i dont mean go looking for them, but when its there in front of you
give yourself a chance and react positively.
zero tolerance to the bully, the mugger, the druggy the big shot with his mates, and lets stop doubting our tma because that in itself is the beginning of the adrenalin dump.

with respect Kevin

PS. HOW DO I PLACE A PICTURE ON MY ID AT THE TOP
I KNOW, IM THICK AS A BRICK.

Posted by: AngelaG Aug 9 2006, 07:18 PM

QUOTE (Shorin-Ryu Karateka @ Aug 9 2006, 02:06 AM)

The first night we did it the brown belt we 'mugged' completely froze up and just stood there slack jawed. The second time we did it we got a better response but just slightly... We've actually talked about making it part of the test for black belt...

This is a possible part of the test for black belt. At my last grading the majority of the black belts got jumped and fought back, one, testing for Sandan, didn't get jumped because he kept an eye out all the time and always had his back covered. A few didn't get jumped at all (i.e. keeping them guessing).

A black belt at our club has a syllabus, but the motto is "be prepared for ANYTHING". We do pressure testing as a part of BB testing.

Posted by: unbroken circle Aug 10 2006, 05:30 AM

QUOTE (royal20 @ Apr 24 2006, 10:40 PM)

Yet if you put them in some form of a simulated fight...whether it be tournament sparring, UFC, K1, scenario drills, NHB, whatever... they all pretty much resort to the same thing, basic punching & kicking. So why waste my time spending years training other techniques if that is the end result?

In my mind I don't practice my katas and techiques so that I can use that exact thing on the street. If you ask me the katas are simply there as the "art" side of the arts. I do however feel that by practicing my katas and techiques I learn how to thread my basics together. By being able to do more than one or two punches or kicks at a time I feel that I can more adequately defend myself. So, If you ask me the traditional "art" side of the arts isn't simply impractical, it can help.

In my studio whenever I learn a new technique my sensei brings up "you probably would have to change this on the street" He is right. Despite how we would all love it if things happened just like they do in the studio they never will, so by getting really good at your techniques you allow your self to have one of the most important aspects of self defence -- flow and fluency.

His other motto is "You fight how you train" If you practice your punches softly or sloppily, when the time comes and you are in a real fight. Your punches will still be sloppy. When you are training don't tell yourself "well, when I'm in a real fight it'll be different" It won't.

Posted by: unbroken circle Aug 10 2006, 05:35 AM

P. S. Kevin, you can customise your posts by setting your personal controls. At the top of the page there is a Button labled "My Controls" That has everything you need to put pictures and signatures on your posts.

Posted by: unbroken circle Aug 10 2006, 05:41 AM

QUOTE (Shorin-Ryu Karateka @ Aug 9 2006, 02:06 AM)

Although we don't do it very often, we have done training in the past where at some point someone in the class is going to get jumped by one or more blackbelts.

My Sensei's school used to do the same thing until it became an issue of broken bones and medical insurance. They would call it "animal class" and just about every time someone would get something broken. It is, however, a good tool to take away the shock of a real fight. After a while it would become instinctive to just react.

Posted by: GKRDan Sep 30 2006, 08:04 PM

Read some Geoff Thompson is all I have to say!

Posted by: budo_spirit Mar 18 2009, 04:27 PM

Karate is pretty good if you repeat the techniques over and over. Also, Karate is one of those systems that's good whatever weight you are. I've found that I tend not to use the traditional techniques of Karate, but rather use directed striking like punching and kicking, predominantly. Like anything, it's about movement, so depending on your openings and FIFO or 'first in first out' techniques or even taisabaki which is side-stepping techniques, you must have a sense of spatial awareness when dealing with more than one opponent. So basically not being hit is crucial. A lot of the open-hand techniques which Karate has to offer only really works if you have toughened hands. Toughening is an integral aspect of Karate training. I am a kicker, so that means if I was in a fight i'd use my kicking abilities mostly, due to the fact I am very supple and I can kick very hard.

Posted by: Kuri Tora Ryu Mar 20 2009, 02:41 PM

Yes it does!!!

I have had quite a few confrontations on the street and each time my karate has come through top trumps. I work more on the street effectiveness of my Karate rather than how 'pretty' or 'perfect' the kata are!!!

If we use Karate for what is was designed for and not just pretty moves for medals or tippy tappy comps and move back to knockdown rules karate then we'll be half way there.

Tai Sabaki is also a very good technique that comes in well during theses confrontations. This is taught in most styles but predominately in Wado and Ashihara/Enshin styles

Osu!!!

Posted by: AbramsP Mar 21 2009, 04:21 PM

Do you know the karate terms in Japanese..Ikken Hisatsu..that's effective weapon.

A single strike to the most vital part of the opponent's body is the one and only weapon in any martial arts.

I try to sharpen my chudan gyaku/kizame tsuki. I practice it very hard everyday but never doing it on a street fight though.

Posted by: HammerHands Mar 21 2009, 09:45 PM

i think karate works on the streets, because you cannot lose a fight that you do not participate in.
that or,
if you actually understand the concept given to you, that should allow you to pick apart and intercept the threat or threats you encounter,
just because you are not stomping the shit out of some one, doesn't necessitate a win or lose, some times you may not even have to inflict damage on your opponent to win a fight, and walking away without significant injury must mean a win right?

i was in a fight a while ago when i got slugged in the cheek and laughed it off and said to the guy "you don't want none", we had been drinking and i could have destroyed him, but the true martial artist inside me said "no aaron, you won't win the fight when the cops show up" lol

Posted by: Limit Mar 22 2009, 01:46 AM

It sounds to me like you were just stupid and froze and now have questioned everything you ever learned... It happens..

First: start sparring, light contact and full contact.. I like full contact with full blown takedowns, chokes, etc...

If you fight somebody like how you spar, then you might as well be doing Muay Thai, Boxing, etc... Sparrings there to help better your reactions, timing, distancing, and overall technique.

I've bounced and so has many people from our dojo. done that whole shabang. I can guarantee you it works if you apply it right.

Even though I'm an avid UFC and MMA fan, if you try and apply 90% of the techniques on the street, especially BJJ... you're in for a very RUDE awakening. Remember, the UFC are two fighters who have agreed on a rather large ruleset, in a situation without weapons, clothes, or friends in an open space. The problem is that all of these fighters and their "systems" train around these rulesets.

Don't let those videos of the Gracie's (the highest ranking people in their system) beating up on random, rather shitty fighters make you think otherwise.

I do Shorin-ryu btw

Posted by: HammerHands Mar 23 2009, 01:32 PM

this Shotokan guy that i trained with a few times told me like this "go hard 100% of the time or don't go at all"
that was a couple years ago so it was more indepth than just that. if you must fight, then strike hard, strike first and devistate. bottom line for him was, the faster you finish the first one, the quicker you can move on to the next or scurry away.

good to see some more activity on here again.

Posted by: andyb28 Mar 24 2009, 09:14 PM

Hi Everyone,

I normally dont venture out of the Wado forum, but this is an interesting thread.
Our club do usually 10-15 minutes at the end of a class of sparring. Its relative to the person you partner with, but most of us do go at it fairly hard. Not to a stupid level, but there is clear contact. With hand and foot pads and a gum shield you are fairly safe.

I have however picked up some minor injuries, but that all comes down to experience. Nothing major, broken toe, finger, rib etc. I am very grateful to be able to train like this as I can remember a time where sparring like this would drain me of my energy just by being in a tense situation. Our club is traditional wado and I do feel confident with my style. However, I have also done judo and boxing when I was younger, so maybe that all helps? I think people need to realise they will get punched and learn to deal with that. You have all heard the "everyone has a plan until they are punched in the face" well its so true, learning to recover from a punch is just as important as the rest of the fight.

I luckily haven't been in a fight fight since I was a teenager, so I really have no way of knowing except from the sparring I do in class. However, I used my training then and it was against someone untrained and it was fairly easy to defend myself.
I like the idea you had of trying out your training in the original post. I have some friends who study other styles, you have inspired us to pad up and have a play. I think we will also order in some of those TKD chest protectors

Andy

Posted by: the karate grown-up Mar 24 2009, 09:34 PM

karate on the streets?
You can maybe use some karate skills to jump or roll over cars, and timing and reflexes can be used to be avoid being hit by cars. But if I highly doubt that a yoku-geri geri or gyaku tsuki would help you against a truck moving at 50 km/h or more.

Posted by: andyb28 Mar 24 2009, 09:52 PM

QUOTE (the karate grown-up @ Mar 24 2009, 09:34 PM)

eh?

and wouldnt a "yoku-geri geri" be side kick kick?

Posted by: HammerHands Mar 25 2009, 04:11 AM

that made me lol

Posted by: budo_spirit Mar 25 2009, 04:04 PM

my favourite is mawashi gedan geri to the knee, or a mawashi jodan geri. i always do those kicks in my sparring. clobbered some dude with an ushiro mawashi jodan 'reverse roundhouse kick to the head'...started pissing blood everywhere.

Posted by: andyb28 Mar 25 2009, 05:45 PM

QUOTE (budo_spirit @ Mar 25 2009, 04:04 PM)

You kicked a guy in the head and he started urinating blood?

Posted by: HammerHands Mar 26 2009, 02:52 AM

QUOTE (andyb28 @ Mar 25 2009, 05:45 PM)

QUOTE (budo_spirit @ Mar 25 2009, 04:04 PM)

You kicked a guy in the head and he started urinating blood?

yeah thats pretty awsome,
my reverse spinning side, round what ever, heel, kicks are higher than my round house.... but how did you manage that?

i mean can you provide video, pics or court documents? lol jk

Posted by: AngelaG Mar 26 2009, 07:23 AM

QUOTE (andyb28 @ Mar 25 2009, 05:45 PM)

QUOTE (budo_spirit @ Mar 25 2009, 04:04 PM)

You kicked a guy in the head and he started urinating blood?

errr it's just an expression. In this case I suspect it just means that blood was pouring out all over the place.

Posted by: HammerHands Mar 27 2009, 08:44 PM

binary code lacks the sarcasim and humor that we need to comunicate as we do in person...
its just funny...

Posted by: kindred21101982 Mar 29 2009, 04:09 AM

Does Karate work on the street? ITS BETTER THAN NOTHING

Has it worked? YES

Will it work in the future? YES

Has it worked every time? NO

Its not the style its the person. Just cause you give a guy a gun, doesnt mean he can hit anything with it.

Posted by: Kuro-Obi Apr 14 2009, 11:32 AM

QUOTE (kindred21101982 @ Mar 29 2009, 04:09 AM)

i agree,a great sensei is good but i think it must be instilled in a person for the Karate to be unlocked to full potential.

Posted by: HammerHands Apr 15 2009, 08:40 PM

some guys tried to jump my best friend this weekend, they didn't realize that i was staged by him, or even with him and we had another guy in the crowd watching what was going on, so i threw a left hook right strait combo and dropped 2 guys,,, i mean i got wooped on too, but my friend got away clean.

practice as much karate or what ever you are into as much as you can, because when the sh!t hits the fan, you need that switch to flick and let your training take over... other wise you are stuck with the "fight or flight" lack of karate means you had better be fast!

Posted by: Baalfyre Apr 19 2009, 01:34 AM

A few good friends I know in the armed forces say the same thing..."It can only help if you don't take the person's feeling into consideration." For me this makes sense. We are trained not really to fight, but to learn an artform. When we spar in class, we watch out for the other person, making sure we don't hurt anyone. After 5 or 6 years of training not to inflict any real damage to someone, this HAS to have an effect on "the street".

If we aren't concerned about the other guy, and use what we have been taught for its actual purpose, then we have a massive leg up on our attacker (assuming we are being defensive) and should come out for the better.

The first punch in the face and their is no gameplan, so let's hope training kicks in and we put the bad guy down. If not, we look like a guy the thought he knew Karate.

Posted by: Kazushi12 Apr 24 2009, 04:51 PM

Hi,

I began MA training 20 years ago and after beginning with Karate after several years training still had serious doubts as to the effectiveness of the system. I began dabbling in and mastering other MAs from that point and since then have unfortunately had hundreds of actual street fights and confrontations due to circumstances. Nowadays thankfully I am in a more peaceful envioronment and I am a strict pacifist but do consider myself to be in a position to confidently have a good idea of what is effective and ineffective in real life combat.

The first thing about karate is it was taught by Chinese military attaches to Okinawans. The primitive nature of Karate compared to many Chinese systems supports the fact that the style was a bastadised form taught so as no threat could actually be posed by it. The katas are great for developing strength and look fantastic, but as far as actual applications go are almost useless. Western media is responsible for giving us the idea these fancy movements are practical. Basic techniques are so rigid that only someone who did nothing would actually become a target. The blocks are so big by the time one was executed you'd be flattened. The stances are fixed, mobility is a key to success in real fighting. And the hyper extension of kicks and punches ruins knees and elbows of the performer.

The argument is that large techniques are trained and in real life they get scaled down but I don't accept that.

As Karate developed, pre-arranged sparring and actual sparring evolved. Much of the pre-arranged sparring is ineffective. Firstly, the attack is usually the traditional huge stepping punch with the arm left out. No one actually attacks like that. From there, the attacker stays put while the defender executes an elaborate array of elbows strikes, balance breaks, arm locks etc. All of which depend upon the very unrealistic attack method for success. If these techniques really worked than we would see them in free sparring. This method doesn't account for people resisting, moving away, attacking when you are not expecting it, all of which happen in real life. The dojo etiquette is so instilled in its members that no one ever resists or moves or punches properly. Over time the unrealistic methods become more deeply ingrained in its practioners who become more and more detatched from real life in there training. The exception to where a technique will work is when you attack someone who isn't expecting it. They are the times I've seen Karate work in real life.

Then we move onto sparring, Some Karate styles relied heavily on sparring as training. These were often the most realistic styles, however modern competition sparring has become so regulated that it is just a game of tag basically. The reverse punch for example has become so weak that most people could walk through them. If you're expecting the confrontation to end there in real life you'll be bowled right over. One punch-one kill is unrealistic, especially given the hopping, long distance, miss by an inch approach taken.

The high kicks can be effective but in real fights they are usually grabbed because grabbing isn't in the rules for competition Karate. The person is amazed there front kick has little effect in an all out brawl, as they find themselves on the ground, haven't even learnt to fall by black belt. They are in big trouble from there.

Groin exposed- During sparring groin kicks are illegal so protecting the groin is forgotten about. On the street, one kick to the groin and down they go- Why? because it is very easy to deliver an effective gron kick, The target is very vulnerable, it takes practise to learn to defend it, to learn to always move in a way where it is second nature to protect the groin so its automatic. Instead most KarateKa practise to leave the groin exposed.

The strategy in Karate sparring these days is very limited relying mainly on speed, blocking then striking. Often those with long reach are therefore the "winners". The fact that as soon as a score is made the fight is over severely limits any development of strategy. Also, the for techniques to be deemed effective the bigger the better, they need to be massively obvious to the observer which is contrary to good fighting which relies often on subtle small techniques which are hard to see. Modern Karateka become masters of the just missing range- not good!

So that leaves most Karate, that is MOST- there are excepetions, as good exercise that develops muscley physique, an attractive series of movements with some interesting historical value, and a game of tag which can be an amusing and very challenging sport. There's nothing wrong with any of that, it jsut isn't very effective as a real fighting style.

Sorry to any true believers, but that is my honest opinion.

Posted by: Limit Apr 25 2009, 11:12 PM

QUOTE (Kazushi12 @ Apr 24 2009, 04:51 PM)

I have to say that I agree with MOST of what you've said, but just about everything you've said for Karate can be applied to ANY Martial Art.

I don't know if you're an MMA fan, but look at how the rules of MMA dictate and effect their training and style. ie: hitting to the back of the head is illegal, therefore they never bother to protect against it.

Boxing: Their natural stance allowing them to get taken down in MMA fights, especially early on. And not even looking for kicks.

BJJ: Don't protect themselves from eye-gauging, groin, or any "cheap" shot..

You could do it for ANY Martial Art. Every fighting system does what you said to an extent.

Posted by: Kazushi12 Apr 26 2009, 04:04 AM

QUOTE

I agree to a certain extent: each style has its strengths and weaknesses. But the difference between styles like Muay Thai, Boxing, Judo, BJJ compared to Traditional Karate and many traditional Chinese Kung Fu styles even, is that they actually engage in combat in order to train. Its like the old saying "You can't learn to swim without going in the water". Competition Karate IMO is the least realistic "actual combat" of all MA styles.

The problem with "Karate" as we know it in modern society is that it has been corrupted and commercialised beyond recognition almost. People don't want actual skills, they want trophies and black belts, and they are more than happy to pay vast ammounts of money for this. Even since I began twenty years ago huge devolvements have occured. This is due to the McDojo phenomenon. It is interesting that this has happened with Karate and not Judo so much for an example. I feel this is because the techniques of Judo can be seen to work or not work, whereas too often in Karate these days there is no "litmus test" for the uninitiated other than competition Kumite. This applies not only to Karate these days but many Karate /TKD type styles. They do seem to be the worst offenders in ineffectiveness to me. They put making money before every other aspect of training. They are however a reasonable activity for introducing fitness to children and socialising. They may be better than nothing if ever self defense was required though.

Posted by: Kazushi12 Apr 26 2009, 01:08 PM

QUOTE

In this day and age Karate is being made into a modern sport, and the techniques are being simplified year by year so that students of average to low ability are able to perform them in competion. Regretably, as a result of this, all the difficult and effective but potentially dangerous techniques are becoming extinct. This is true of every country in the world where Karate is practised, and while I welcome with some reservations the emergence of a modern form of Karate-Do as an international sport, I also feel it would be a tragedy if these powerful techniques so effective for self defense, and that have been passed down generation to generation, should be lost in the generations that will follow.

Has this happened? I think so.

Posted by: Kazushi12 Apr 26 2009, 01:56 PM

Sorry, forgot to name the quote-

Masafumi Shiomitsu of Wado, around 1985.

Posted by: Limit Apr 26 2009, 04:40 PM

QUOTE (Kazushi12 @ Apr 26 2009, 04:04 AM)

QUOTE

Then we aren't talking about Traditional Karate, we're talking about modernized, sport karate, in which case I totally agree.

All I know, is that my traditional karate, has worked on the street 100% thus far.

Posted by: Kazushi12 Apr 26 2009, 08:51 PM

QUOTE

Yes there are a few clubs still left here and there that haven't got caught up in the BS, I'm glad you've found one. In my part of the world at least the five main styles Shotokan, Goju, Kyokushin, Wado, and Shito have all basically headed the McDojo direction. There are small pockets of genuine followers from each style who are dedicated to keeping the real Karate alive. But they are few and far between. If you can find one of these clubs you are fortunate.

Anyway, good luck with your training Limit. It is good you have found a club that you are happy with. Nice talking with you buddy.

Posted by: magpie Aug 29 2009, 04:13 AM

QUOTE

Royal20 wrote:
Hello, I'm new to this forum and I'm sure that this topic has been debated on here before. My intent is not to ruffle any feathers, but to generate some healthy debate. I myself trained in the traditional arts for 10 years, but after coming to some tough realizations about karate (basically that 99% of it doesn't work in the real world), I've been doing more of what I would consider realistic fighting (boxing, muay thai, BJJ, etc...). Again I'm not looking for hate mail...just intellectual conversation. A good start would be the UFC. Why don't we see fixed stances, blocks, reverse punches, ridge hands, shutos, flashy kicks, etc...all the things we learn as a Karate student?

Karate works on the street, its saved my bacon afew times.

Btw regarding fixed stances, never seen in it in sparring, stances could be looked at as launching pads or landing strips, there are anything but static.

Osae uke jodan seiken gyaku zuki
user posted image

Lyoto Machida shotokan karateka in UFC user posted image

karate competition

user posted image

JKA shotokan - shobu ippon

All of the techniques in karate can be used in a street fight.

JKA shotokan karate - Shobu Ippon
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6LPxs1zbmE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkGP0AM14F0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4R-4xjpaCQ

Lyoto Machida JKA shotokan karate
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nqbAfzrg-E

Chinzo Machida (Lyoto's farther) JKA Karate
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzQt2dO4JGU

Shotokan Shobu Ippon
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQoLMIkbeBA&feature=fvw

karate-do ippon-1 ko's
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V--36Ida6Wo&feature=related

karate-do ippon-2 ko's
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQ_RtO5FrdE

Posted by: 47MartialMan Sep 11 2009, 03:53 AM

magpie, this is because people, who really have perform practiced, perfected kumite in not knowing any better.

Posted by: larry c Oct 7 2009, 03:38 PM

It did for me...on a few occasions.

Posted by: Montana Oct 7 2009, 04:59 PM

There's a HUGE difference between fighting an opponent that knows you have skills (such as fighting in the UFC) and fighting an opponent on the street that doesn't know what you know. The element of surpise is of a HUGE advantage to you if you know how to use it.

One of my biggest pet peeves in the MA's is an instructor that teaches their students, when confronted by an aggressive assailant, to assume a "karate-like" threatening pose and give a big KIA in an attempt to scare off the attacker.

Well folks, if you know anything at all about the male species, all this is going to do is possibly make them more wary, more determined (which can work in your favor actually) and yes, perhaps more cautious in their approach to you. And the biggest thing is...you just LOST your advantage of surprise!

With the advantage of surprise, you can end a fight in literally seconds, as opposed to minutes (that can seem like hours) of fighting.

Posted by: Sheppyboy Oct 7 2009, 08:23 PM

Here's a clip doing the rounds at the moment. Enjoy!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ow3dByonr5w

Posted by: katafreek Oct 8 2009, 02:31 AM

QUOTE

Here's a clip doing the rounds at the moment. Enjoy!

A good reverse punch is the most effective technique there is.

Posted by: repz Nov 23 2009, 08:33 PM

I actually see it the other way around. Boxers and MT train with padded gloves with no hand strikes. Are you going to punch someones face thats the equivalent of a rock wrapped in a blanket with no protection and no hand straps?

Fighters are begged by their promoters to not start fights, because it almost always results in a broken hand. They leave in worst shape than the person they fought, only thing they can brag about is that they didnt get knocked out. Boxers dont condition their hands, and they arent trained to punch someone without padding or straps. I started with boxing by the way.

What you listed are sports, that are dependant on a sports enviornment, a fictional universe of protective gear and open free spaces for rolling and no gate holding are rule, a universe where the complete opposite exists in the real world where hands do break on face punches and there is no space for rolling and no time for it (even royce gracie took very very very long to beat a boxer with no mma experience or grappling experience in the old ufc while he had him mounted on the top position, its pretty obvious why you wouldnt want to extend a street self defense fight this way), where one on one is a myth and where weapons and groups are a reality. You going to throw 3 punches to 3 skulls with no padding? Or roll while 3 guys are looking down on you kicking you?

I trained in bjj, on my first day my professor told me to get on my back.... and for that whole year I was on the floor (I did learn some sweet sweeps, but those are sweeps I have learned in TMA now) its pretty obvious as to why I didnt consider BJJ a smart choice for an encounter in the street. Ground grappling is and should always be for an OH CRAP I MESSED UP situation in the street, training in grappling should be to prevent grappling in the first place.

Also, keep in mind the gracies do teach tma-like japanese jujitsu techniques for self defense (traditional wrist locks and standing elbow breaks). Thats a valid point no one ever brings up.

And besides, its 2009, I see deep stance hitting, hammerfists, backfists, odd tma stances, landing so many shots on boxers and mt fighters in mma. It seems mma gets thrown off with curveballs thrown by expert pitchers and it becomes the flavor of the month.

Posted by: repz Nov 23 2009, 09:17 PM

My apologies if this has already been posted, but heres a funny vid about karate in the streets.... literally
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72pBCMzwhJI

Posted by: 47MartialMan Nov 29 2009, 08:11 AM

Yes. This is a old video. Hoever, I wonder how many here had to actually use their skills in such confrontation?

Posted by: fujicolt Jan 25 2010, 10:45 PM

QUOTE (Baalfyre @ Apr 19 2009, 01:34 AM)

absolutely understand your comments BUT believe with correct instruction and training this can be overcome so you can 'switch on' when required. i fortunately speak from experience of this

Posted by: 47MartialMan Jan 29 2010, 12:57 AM

Could we agree that it is situational?

Posted by: fujicolt Feb 4 2010, 10:52 PM

Yes - and sadly the situation oft starts in Dojo teaching theoretical Dog Muck with no basis in the reality of the massively complex subject of real life dangerous situations that they are meant to be preparing thier students for.

I believe there is now a term - Mc Dojo's

Posted by: Terry Lyon Feb 9 2010, 11:47 AM

"Situational" is one of my favorite words when teaching karate and explaining the use of various techniques, it all depends on the situation.

Posted by: fujicolt Feb 9 2010, 04:10 PM

Totally agree Terry,

Having taught Violence and dangerous management (in various situations and settings) I always try to get students to understand the concept of Primary and Secondary Elements. the Primary Elements being the techniques strategies you will employ and the Secondary Elements being anything and everything that can influence the situation for good or ill.

I then get them to think it through and make a list - really gets them to understand it can be very complex. I usually start a list for them and ask them to think it through and expand the list.....

Terrain
Environmental circumstances such as Light, Dark, Hot Cold
Number of assailants
are you alone or maybe with vulnerables such as children
traffic
are you or the attackers under the influence of any alcohol etc
are weapons involved etc etc

Posted by: 47MartialMan Feb 11 2010, 04:25 AM

I agree also...even though "the list" is "situational" also.

Posted by: fujicolt Feb 11 2010, 09:27 PM

No it isn't - it is relevent firstly and any encounter has to be situational because it happens in a situation HAHA!

just chill and give us an example of your list please

Posted by: 47MartialMan Feb 24 2010, 12:13 AM

Situational list applies to situations per listed

Posted by: underlink Mar 24 2010, 05:12 PM

QUOTE (royal20 @ Apr 18 2006, 11:15 PM)

I see what your saying about the Aikido, i went to an aikido class in my youth and it was the aikido fellowship and like you said no striking, all very "wishy-washy" momentum that is not much use unless you parter is willin to run around you like a dimwit.

However when i came to uni i attended a Yoshinkan aikido club for around 3 years, and these guys are brutal, lots of striking and hitting and all the moves were incredably effective. i think it helped that my instructor was a doorman aswell.

but when he demonstrated technique on me i never used to help me atall if he asked me to kick i would really give it to him. somtimes id attack him without him knowiong the technioque and i would end up on the floor unable to move in seconds.

so ask for aikido imo yoshinkan is the only real style to learn

Posted by: 47MartialMan Mar 25 2010, 02:23 AM

This thread is about Karate on the street, not Aikido

Posted by: ippon Apr 9 2010, 07:39 PM

The question isn't valid. If I chop you across the front of the throat, yes it works, if you hit me in the head with a bat, no it doesn't. Question should be "Can karate be an effective form of Self Defense?"
Even asked in this manner is not completely correct. Lets try: "Are punches in the face, kicks in the groin, stomps on the knees, strikes to the throat, pokes in the eyes, hammer fists to the nose, knees and elbows to the head and joint breaking techniques really effective on the street? What do you think?
I'm not trying to be a wise ass, just trying to make a point. If a grappler walks into a dojo and says "Hey lets spar a little" I'm probably going to end up on the ground in a very uncomfortable position. If someone confronts me on the "street" I'm not going to "spar" with him, I will stomp the knees, poke the eyes, strike the throat, kick the groin and maybe if i react swiftly, with power and speed and control the situation before my opponent can get started, maybe my "karate" will be effective.
If a boxer lands a solid hook on a grapplers chin and knocks him out, is grappling an ineffective art?
If a football player runs head on into a boxer an flattens him out, is football now the most effective art on the street?
Maybe the question should be "Are you effective on the street?"
I believe trained properly anyone can be effective and I also believe everyone can be beat.

Posted by: 47MartialMan Apr 10 2010, 04:12 AM

QUOTE (ippon @ Apr 9 2010, 07:39 PM)

This is the reality of the question for the thread.

Posted by: and2premiere Apr 23 2010, 03:39 PM

QUOTE (ippon @ Apr 9 2010, 07:39 PM)

Nice post. Totally agree.