Seishan-seisan, some background

Here is an article Shingo Ohgami published tracing the origin of seishan. Some of you may have seen it previously.

http://www.wadokai.co.nz/uploads/562/attac...ingo_Ohgami.pdf

Edit: some links to compare the kata in this article:

isshin ryu seisan this is Matsumura type seishan-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRhzhfUqEVg&feature=related

shoto hangetsu by Oshima
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NJjeAvRH1k&feature=related

wado seishan by Suzuki (complete with Indian restaurant music) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8uKeKE9Lh3U

uechi ryu type by Kanei Uechi
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vh2GL0T6pm8

ryuei ryu by Sakumoto http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vTtRyNjA2eY

gojuryu type by Higoanna http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjddaBWugLs



regards

Ben

Hi Ben,

Given a clearer argument I could be convinced differently but to date it doesn't take much to see that Seisan and seishan are two quite different kata in form and application so I cannot understand why - in the attempt to clarify the origin of either one - they should be lumped together. Except for the Peking pronunciation having the more sibilant expression in the number 13 they are quite distinctly different kata. Also though, the number 13 is not divisable by 3 so I cannot see this connection either. maybe it's me..?

The kata themselves, whilst having similarities in stepping and perhaps embusen, appear - from a wado perspective - to work two completely different sets of principles.

Of course I realise Seishan in its pre Ohtsuka life may have presented differently but I argue the same differences if the subject matter was the Shoto Hangetsu version..

On a personal note, I do wish Ohgami sensei would stop using the s on kata to note plurality. Kata are like fish you can have one fish or ten fish but not ten fishes. kata is the same: one kata or ten kata but not ten katas.

oneya

The joys of the English language plural! It must be terribly confusing if it is not your first language. For example whilst there may well be a shoal of fish numbering in their thousands, they might be hunted by a pack of sharks or a flock of seagulls. Heaven help the writer if the word in question is of Greek origin, in which case adding an 's' will not suffice. And then the American's come along and say "you do the math!" and us Brits have to add a mental "s" to finish their sentance properly!

I will see him next week so I will pass on your concern though! He might have taken his lead from Tatsuo's books perhaps which use this too?

Anyway, before we loose all interest from the rest of the forum, onto the kata...

My reading of the comment about 3 being the divisor was that he points out that various kata have a numeric based name which is divisable by 3. I don't think he groups seishan/seisan in the same sentance.

Are you saying that you would need to be convinced that seishan and seisan are of the same origin?

If we look purely at seishan stream he lists Matsumura no Seishan and various of that type and then the Funakoshi type which Wado seishan is from. One of the interesting aspects there is the open hands part of the kata, where only Wado seishan and Shoto's Hangetsu has inherited this motion of having the downward arm over the forward leg. The Matsumura type have the hands positioned the opposite way around. This is also true in the Naha type Seisan stream of kata.

That article though was written a good 10 years ago now. I know he has a better scanner so I might be able to persuade him to update it and drop the "s" for your ease of reading (or compromise with an apostrophe?!).

regards

Ben

Not specifically to do with seishan, but this article by Joe Swift discusses the origin of various kata:

http://www.msisshinryu.com/articles/swift/kata.shtml

Edit: link to their kata, bit different to ours, naihanchi is worth a look

http://www.youtube.com/watchv=ZyUMPjddzZc&...rom=PL&index=24

regards

Ben

Ah Ben, it wasn’t the joys of the English language that caused my comment. If I am not mistaken ‘kata’ being a Japanese term relies on context for its plurality. The term itself doesn’t translate easily into English so – for me - the English method of the additional letter is muddying the water – and don’t get me started on the apostrophe.

My thoughts on wado seishan kata, are that it is clearly different in origin, principles and its intent to warrant its own exploration into its transmission rather than a job lot with the various seisan kata. I came away from the essay more tangled than usual but, as I said, that could well be me.

It was very interesting to go wandering through the various seisan and versions of seishan and, an interesting point for me was comparison the Oshima hangetsu 2000 and 2006 presentations and the differences in rei and posture. The seasons take their toll as can be seen from a similar exercise with Suzuki’s earlier seishan and the later presentation you posted, thank you for supplying the various URLs.

oneya

I enjoyed Mr Ohshima's performances. I also liked his dojo, wow that is huge.

In Suzuki Sensei's biography he tells a story of how he was offered a big opportunity in that area but had to turn it down out of respect for Mr Ohshima and the help that he gave during his visit.

Yes I enjoyed both the 2000 and the 2006 presentations of hangetsu for more than just the variations and the dojo would be something other worldly for training.

I once trained in the oldest dojo in Nagoya with Umemoto sensei whilst a huge thunderstorm was in progress. It was a timber dojo with shutters to the windows. We were doing Chinto kata with all the wooden shutters in a raised position.. It was an amazing experience and the accompanying percussion and lightning ' music ' from the heavens was exhilarating.

Another 'experience' was the hamburgers and chips afterwards..???

Ah but when I grow up I wanna do it like Okumachi.

oneya

I picked the Oshima clip as I thought it looked a bit different to the JKA type Hangetsu, I think his background was a bit different to the Nakayama people and it shows in his kata.

I agree the setting was impressive. The whole building is quite something. I should imagine most of us train in far more humble surroundings than this:

http://www.ska.org/


regards

Ben

I picked the Oshima clip as I thought it looked a bit different to the JKA type Hangetsu, I think his background was a bit different to the Nakayama people and it shows in his kata.

I agree the setting was impressive. The whole building is quite something. I should imagine most of us train in far more humble surroundings than this:

http://www.ska.org/


regards

Ben

Yes I think Oshima went to the USA in the mid 50s and Nishiyama went there for a supposedly one year contract arranged with Oshima to cover his absence but stayed much longer. This was part of the shoto division in the States which was probably indicative of the extensive division world wide.

The much thumbed copy of karate do Kyohan that I have dates from 1972 and Oshima did the translation and the photographs which are quite different from the JKA of Nakayama. This shows in the video kata demonstrations also.. I have a much older (1966) copy of Nishiyama & Brown's book of 'Karate' which reflects - what I would call - the Nakayama/JKA style of karate and the two have a quite different feel.

If I had to relate either to wado I would probably see Oshima's work as being closer to Ohtsuka's gleanings from his time with Funakoshi. I have to say, I don't see Ohtsuka having too much of a relationship with what we might understand as the Shotokai approach today though. What we do seem to have inherited is the ability for certain influences to flourish in our training which could be said to foster the inevitable divisions. I see this as being quite a different philosophy to the koryu tradition where the ryu and its inheritance are paramount which seems to foster branches from the roots and successive ryuha -- or have I got that wrong.?

As for humble dojo, If there were prizes for the most humble dojo I reckon I'd be in the running at the moment.

oneya

His students built that dojo.
And his house which is on the premises.

They all love him. It is kind of strange to see this sort of accolade.
I visited him once and he made me lunch and told me all sorts of stories from the good old days. Most of the money came from France. He has a loyal following in the US. I don't necessarily understand his karate but they all train hard. He was smart enough to start a program at CalTech and he told me that Richard Feynman would hang out frequently.

The only famous person that came out of the Berkeley karate club was the ex Mr Jane Fonda (Tom Hayden).

Hi Ben,

to be fair to Mr. Suzuki,

this music is from KODO. http://www.kodo.or.jp/news/index_en.html
Which is Japanese.

I have one or some cds of them. The particular track is number one from a cd, on my harddisk it doesn't have a name;)

Regards,

AJ.

Hi Ben,

to be fair to Mr. Suzuki,

this music is from KODO. http://www.kodo.or.jp/news/index_en.html
Which is Japanese.

I have one or some cds of them. The particular track is number one from a cd, on my harddisk it doesn't have a name;)

Regards,

AJ.

Hi AJ,

I don't think Suzuki Sensei chose the music or posted the clip so I wasn't being critical of him, I just found the music amusing.

That wasn't perhaps the best version to post. I was looking for the old Sakura Trading films clip but no ones put them up on youtube (and its beyond my know how to do so!).

Looking around at other Shotokan versions, I get the impression Hangetsu does not occupy such a prominent position amongst their kata.

Regards

Ben

In Wado we have this thinking where the road leads from the Pinan kata, to kushanku, onto naihanchi and then the promised land of seishan and chinto.

I don't think Shotokan or others have that kind of approach, barring Unsu being the top kata because of competitions.

I guess Unsu maybe top of the shop for the Shoto guys, just as Suparenpei is for the Goju/Shito guys - albeit in the most part, as you suggest as competition ammo.

But, I would agree that most of my efforts (at the moment anyway) are being channelled into "realising" the path from Pinan to Kushanku, and then that of Naihanchi to Seishan - and their convergence into Chinto.

Maybe I will learn suparenpei after all

Gary

No, don't do it. Learn seipai instead.